The professionals weigh in

June 16, 2006

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GodHatesShrimp.com got linked on a couple of fairly well-known blogs, so it's been getting lots of hits the last couple of days. This morning I got another e-mail, this one from a professional bible scholar (as opposed to an amateur):

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 04:47:50 -0400
From: [name withheld]
To: <ryland@aboyandhiscomputer.com>
Subject: Hello from England

From: [name withheld] (British Christian Minister)

Hello,

I came across a site that you are associated with, but there is no contact address on it, so I had to dig around and write to this address which is on another site of yours.

I wanted to point out some things with regard to the ''God Hates Shrimp'' site, which is bring derision on you in much the same way as derision is being poured on Mr Phelps and what he is doing.

Can I firstly point out that there are three types of Christian and Mr Phelps is either a type 2 or 3. He is not a type 1, ''narrow way'', Christian, or any sort of servant of God. He is not doing the will of God and is not following Jesus therefore. Some of what you say is correct; Phelps'' behaviour is appalling. However some of what he says is quite right, the Lord God does hate ''fags''. BUT that is not the whole truth. God hates all sinners, and only loves His own people. God hates whores, fornicators, drunkards, liars, feminists, paedophiles, murderers, adulterers, etc. too, and will burn them all. So for Phelps to do as he is is just madness conditioned by his not being with Christ, whom he plainly does not know. He would do well to stop his nonsense and make friends with the sodomites as he is going to burn alive with them forever, unless he repents.

It is not Phelps that I am concerned for though, but you. I would guess that Phelps is a lost cause, but I hope you will turn around and see sense. I assume you are quite young.

Your site demonstrates a complete incomprehension of the things of God, or His Covenants, and His Law. Type 1 Christians, and some type 2 and 3's shake their heads in dismay at such ignorance. But that is not the problem so much as that of the many type 2 and 3 Christians who will pour contempt on you in the same way that they do on Phelps. This is because you are trying to use an outsider's understanding of theology to parody and overcome Phelps. But you do not know your subject and this is rather backfiring on you. This is not good for you. Your site demonstrates that neither you, nor your partner on that site, actually know the Lord Jesus, or have heard Him speak to you, directly.

I do not write to accuse you, but to point out that, as strangers to Christ like Phelps, you are wasting your time and attracting much derision in the process. I suggest that you need to rethink your strategy.

Yours, [name withheld].

And here's my response:

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:49:54 -0500
From: Ryland <ryland@aboyandhiscomputer.com>
To: [name withheld]
Subject: Re: Hello from England

Hello Mr. [name withheld],

I hope you don't mind if I address your points by quoting and responding to them one-by-one.

You wrote:
I came across a site that you are associated with, but there is no
contact address on it, so I had to dig around and write to this address
which is on another site of yours.
I apologize for that, but as you might suspect, I did it on purpose to cut down on the amount of crank e-mails I get. I don't get very much e-mail at all these days, though, since the site has been around for a couple of years, so I may have to review this policy.
Can I firstly point out that there are three types of Christian and Mr
Phelps is either a type 2 or 3. He is not a type 1, ''narrow way'',
Christian, or any sort of servant of God. He is not doing the will of
God and is not following Jesus therefore.
This is a sentiment that confuses me a bit; it seems that every "type" of Christian is an expert on other "types" of Christians. In particular, when one type does something another type doesn't like, the latter type is always quick to point out that "that person isn't a *real* Christian" or "that person isn't doing God's will". I feel sure that Fred Phelps would disagree with you and say that *you* aren't doing God's will. I'm afraid from my perspective, anyone who professes to be a Christian gets the benefit of the doubt and is considered to be a real Christian; although whether any of you are doing God's will, I can't say.

Also, could you expand upon what you mean by "type 1, type 2", and so forth? The taxonomy of the different "types" of Christian is intriguing. (This has nothing to do with it, but your use of "type 1," etc. reminds me of Star Trek, where phaser weapons are referred to as Type I, Type II, and so on.)
Some of what you say is
correct; Phelps'' behaviour is appalling. However some of what he says
is quite right, the Lord God does hate ''fags''. BUT that is not the
whole truth. God hates all sinners, and only loves His own people.
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Sounds to me as if he loved sinners enough to give up his son for them.
It is not Phelps that I am concerned for though, but you. I would guess
that Phelps is a lost cause, but I hope you will turn around and see
sense. I assume you are quite young.
I'm 38, actually. I guess that means you think I'm acting immaturely?
Your site demonstrates a complete incomprehension of the things of God,
or His Covenants, and His Law. Type 1 Christians, and some type 2 and
3's shake their heads in dismay at such ignorance. But that is not the
problem so much as that of the many type 2 and 3 Christians who will
pour contempt on you in the same way that they do on Phelps. This is
because you are trying to use an outsider's understanding of theology to
parody and overcome Phelps. But you do not know your subject and this
is rather backfiring on you. This is not good for you.
I don't profess to be an expert in Christian theology or apologetics, but it seems to me that I know a bit more about it than people that carry around signs saying that "God hates sodomites" and "AIDS kills fags dead" and so forth. And I still maintain that Christians in general tend to "cherry-pick" the parts of the bible they like and downplay or ignore the rest; not just on the issue of homosexuality, but on many issues where our viewpoints have evolved. We don't believe in geocentrism anymore, for example, whereas people used to be excommunicated for believing in heliocentrism. I hope and believe that in the future, people will find our present attitudes about homosexuality as foolish as we modern people find the idea of the sun revolving around the earth.

Whatever you may think of me, I'm not trying to destroy your faith. Joe's and my intent with the site was not only to lampoon Fred Phelps, but to spark debate and encourage serious thought about these matters, rather than knee-jerk acceptance of biblical authority. If my server logs, which have pointed me to many, many lively and thoughtful debates in various message boards and forums, are any indication, I think we're successful on that score.
Your site
demonstrates that neither you, nor your partner on that site, actually
know the Lord Jesus, or have heard Him speak to you, directly.
I'm guessing you mean this in a poetic or symbolic sense. Or have you actually heard Jesus literally speaking to you?
I do not write to accuse you, but to point out that, as strangers to
Christ like Phelps, you are wasting your time and attracting much
derision in the process. I suggest that you need to rethink your strategy.
I appreciate your concern, but as I mentioned above, I think our strategy is successful, in that it has encouraged people to think and talk about these issues. The fact that you felt the need to write to me would seem to go toward proving that. I'm glad to hear from you, even though you disagree, because if I encouraged you to think about it at all, I win.

Thanks for writing, and best regards,
Ryland Sanders

Update: Justin (the author of the e-mail) wrote back, and I asked him to participate in this thread.

Comments

Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:08am
Hmmm...first of all, Ryland - your reply is brilliant. You make your points without being the least bit confrontational.

Secondly, I didn't know there were "types" of christians like there are types of diabetes.

Third, I thought Mr. god loved the sinners and hated the sins. If that's not the case, I am so going to hell. He hates feminists?!
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Posted by Chip Unicorn :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:47am
I thought Mr. god loved the sinners and hated the sins. If that's not the case, I am so going to hell. He hates feminists?!
As Mark Twain wrote, "Heaven for climate; hell for company." If you bring together the whores, fornicators, drunkards, and liars, at least you'll get a wild party!

I don't think that Ryan is ignorant of the Bible. I think that people like Justin mistake their interpretation of the Bible for what it really is. The Bible evolved over about 1,000 years, with very different circumstances and dozens of editors... and interpretations have evolved much further from that. (For a very minor example, ask a modern Jew why she won't eat a turkey and swiss sandwich... and ask her to show you the verses that teach it.)

People like Justin use the Bible to justify their prejudices. The concept of "feminism" didn't exist in the time of the Bible. Someone with the opposite prejudice (like me!) who feels that feminism is wonderfully compatible with Christianity would quote Galatians 3:26-28:

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Take care, Mermaid.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:48am
Thanks Mr. Unicorn.

Is the party in hell a BYOB?
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:27am
Ryland, you always have the best answers!

Mermaid - that caught my eye too - when did god start hating feminists? And why do feminists rank up there with paedophiles, murderers, drunkards, liars, etc? Maybe he's confusing feminists with [gasp!] lesbians? I'm confused.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:23am
I can see no one here knows anything of the things of God. Anything that is contrary to the nature of God is sin. God hates all sinners and burns them, so it is pretty academic what the outworking of sin is. God hates sodomites, feminists, and paedophiles every bit as much as those of pagan religion, liars, and thieves. All of them burn. Feminism is another Satanic device and directly contrary to God's way. Sure, it's sin. But if those who do it were genuinely saved they would not sin at all. The issue is that they are sinners, not the sin itself.
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 06:10am
Interesting - I don't remember seeing the word "feminist" used in the bible. Perhaps someone could point this uneducated sinner to a verse or two that talks about "feminism" being evil and pertaining to that most scary monster, the devil. Feminist and feminism seem like fairly modern terms to me, although apparently the concept dates back to the time of an early Orthodox saint.

I'm also curious how, if your god created you and the world and all things in it, anything you do could be against his/her/its nature. How sad to believe in a diety that would punish its own creations in such a horrible way.
I can see no one here knows anything of the things of God.
Isn't being prideful and pompous a sin against god? I always understood that judging others was something believers of that most infallible book, the bible, were instructed not to do.

Personally, the idea of worshiping a god who hates its own children, and following a religion that promotes contempt of others based on conflicting stories (which are oral histories written down by people from an entirely different culture than those who originally spoke them), doesn't sound very uplifting to me. Guess I'm bound for the fires of Gehenna .
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 06:56am
I think I will decline to answer that. As an outsider you will have to take the word of a man who knows God. The concept that the wicked know better than God's own people do is plainly fatuous.

The subject of this is Mr Phelps' antics, and Ryland's other site which spends time mocking someone who is not a servant of God as if he was. I was merely pointing out that meddling in the truth of God as an outsider will only result in potentially bringing the Lord's anger towards those that do it closer.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:31am
I think I will decline to answer that. As an outsider you will have to take the word of a man who knows God. The concept that the wicked know better than God's own people do is plainly fatuous.
Ooooh...Justin, you must be an insider.

Puleez you big coward, answer the question.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:40am
Mermaid,

I don't think any genuine minister could be called a 'coward' considering what we go through. :)

The gospel to the wicked, the things of God to God's people. That is what Jesus taught and what His servants do.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:43am
Isn't being prideful and pompous a sin against god?
You still haven't answered the question.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:46am
Listen, Mermaid. As a child of the devil you are in no position to demand anything from God or from those who serve Him.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:47am
I'm not demanding, I'm asking...

Isn't being prideful and pompous a sin against god?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:50am
Mermaid,

You would charge Jesus with being like that when He says such things as 'I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life, NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME'. If you could get your hands on Him and had the power you would kill Him. That is the demonic nature all are born with, and why you must be born again to be a Christian (and I don't mean notionally so, but actually, like all the type 1's have been)
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:57am
If you could get your hands on Him and had the power you would kill Him.

Justin, Justin, Justin. Judge not lest ye be judged. Kill somebody? Are you nuts?!

Wait, don't answer that...I think we've pretty much figured out that you are.
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:25pm
Well this is devolving into insanity. I didn't know god could be killed. If you killed god, would that make you god, then? Or would you be punished for killing god? Is that a capital offense(Incidentally, Justin, how do you stand on the death penalty?).
So far as pride goes:
Psalms 10.4: "The wicked through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after god: god is not in all his thoughts"
Proverbs 8.13: "The fear of the lord is to hate evil; pride and arrogancy, and the evil way and the forward mouth do I hate"
Proverbs 11.2: "When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom"
Proverbs 13.10: "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom"
Proverbs 14.3: "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them"

There's a lot more, but I think that should cover the situation.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:28pm
I was making an observation, not stating a fact. Of course you cannot kill God. The religious people and the Romans tried, but He rose from the dead after three days.

God's way with murderers is execution, as it is with all sorts of sins. BUT what the wicked do with murderers is academic and nothing to do with me. God will burn them in the end anyway. They will get justice, except the odd one He chooses to save unto Himself.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:34pm
If you could get your hands on Him and had the power you would kill Him.

I was making an observation, not stating a fact.
You were making an observation? You accused me of killing "Him" if I had the power. How the hell is that an observation?

You, Sir, are a coward. You won't quote bible verse, you won't answer direct questions. You belong in the same category as Swaggart, Robertson, Falwell, et. al.
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:50pm
God's way with murderers is execution, as it is with all sorts of sins. BUT what the wicked do with murderers is academic and nothing to do with me. God will burn them in the end anyway. They will get justice, except the odd one He chooses to save unto Himself.
Well that's a cheap dodge, then, innit? So if murderers are executed by man, which I take as a technical foul on the 5th commandment(Exodus 20.13, Deuteronomy 5.17), that should be offensive to you, being a man of god and all, but you just slough it off onto god. Look, pal, if yr supposed to be doing his work here on earth, that's a piss poor job. I call fraud!
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:52pm
Sorry you don't understand. 'Thou shalt not kill' refers to murder, and does not include military action or judicial execution, which the Lord ordains for all sorts of things shortly after that commandment was given. You don't know your subject.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:55pm
You don't know your subject.

I don't think you do either because you can't give us chapter or verse.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:59pm
I am not a servant of the Bible. I walk with the living God. I know what the Scripture says, and I know God. As a Satanist you think you know better. Just wait.....
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:03pm
In other words, you don't know the chapter and verse?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:05pm
Nice try, Mermaid, but I do teach the Scripture you know, and I have all the reference books to find things that I cannot remember where they are if need be, so....no
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:09pm
Whatever dude. You're like the nerdy little kid nobody likes and you take your ball and go home.

But guess what? The internet provides everybody with a ball (or in this case, access to your bible), so we have now figured out that you are a sham.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:16pm
Mermaid, I don't think there is anything in the bible to support his point of view, which would seem to be that sinners can't possibly understand or make use of scripture, so there's no point in discussing it with you. He also seems to believe that you can't choose to accept God unless God wants you to, which would seem to deny the concept of free will and thus the capability for moral choice. Which makes his arguments against homosexuality seem a bit ridiculous, since nobody is capable of accepting God unless God signs off, including homosexuals. Which leads me to wonder why he bothers ministering to anybody, if in fact he does, and why he's here taunting us when he's saved and we can't and won't be. Frankly, I was hoping his position would be more nuanced and interesting, but it isn't at all. Ah well, such is life on the internet.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:19pm
Thanks Ryland. He's just one of those close-minded Phelps kind of people. They aren't very creative, are they?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:21pm
Ah, you don't understand. There is no free will until the Lord God engineer your repentance. Until then you must serve your master Satan. It is only when the Lord is drawing you that you can choose to come or not. You think you know more than you do.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:27pm
What's not to understand? If there's no free will without God "engineering" it for me, there's no free will at all, period. If God doesn't decide to engineer my repentance, I can't repent, even if I want to. According to you, there's no possibility that I can make the correct choice without God allowing it, therefore I have no choice. So if I can't make the choice, why do you bother preaching?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:31pm
Your free will is in bondage until He works it for you at his engineering your repentance. You don't have it now, and you will not until you are brought to repentance. True, you cannot repent until He grants you repentance. Preaching is God speaking through his servant. When the Word of God is spoken to those who are given to hear they are set free. God must speak to you or you burn. Religion is of no use.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:34pm
Religion is of no use.

Then why are you a minister?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:41pm
I am not a minister of religion but of God. I serve a person I know, not do religion about someone I don't like religious people do.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:43pm
So we've been having discourse with a fake?! Are you even ordained, or are you one of those self-proclaimed knuckleheads?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:45pm
Who even suggested such a thing. How would you, as a practising Satanist know who was a real servant of God and who was not?

Of course I am ordained and have a photo ID card in my pocket. I did say at the beginning that I was a minister. How on earth can you come to the foolish notions you have?
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:54pm
How would you, as a practising Satanist know who was a real servant of God and who was not?

Oh my gosh...you make me laugh. All I know is that our Rick here is a better Christian than you are.
photo ID card in my pocket

A friend got busted once for having fake ID. A photo ID doesn't mean squat (unless yours is signed by Mr. God).
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Posted by ZSGhost :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:07pm
Contradictions in the bible, ladies and gents. Killing is killing is killing is killing. Judicial execution I can understand, but military action? I was watching a documentary on Joan D'arc, I wondered why anyone ever has the chutzpah to say "God is on my side".

The concept of God is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. Remember the 2nd one.
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Posted by Comrade Mister Ham and Eggs Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:12pm
Ah, the fundie "murder" dodge. Then how come it hasn't come across from the original languages as "murder"? At least not until recently-and at least in this country as a way for evangelicals to justify their belief in the death penalty. Just curious, if god is gonna roast all the sinners anyway, why doesn't he cut to the chase and just smite enemies of the state and society straightaway? Eliminate the middleman.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:23pm
Killing in the name of the Lord actually has sound biblical support. There's lots of rules mandating the stoning of sinners and things like that.
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Posted by ZSGhost :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:29pm
So if someone sins, I can stone them, or is it more complicated then that? Nevermind, let me check the biblesearcher...
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:54pm
Well, I don't know. I think you used to be able to, in biblical times, but of course there are laws against mobs and vigilante justice nowadays. Maybe refraining from stoning sinners counts as rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:04pm
ZSG,
No, you are not the Lord's and that Covenant is over now. The extant Covenant is the New one brought in with Christ. You search the Bible Searcher all you want, you will never make head or tail of it all unless and until you are changed from being a child of the devil to being a child of God.

You must be born again.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:31pm
child of the devil to being a child of God.
All right! I've got a brother.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:02pm
All Bible translation involves some interpretation as you cannot just copy over word by word into English and have it read. Almighty God sent Christ to stand your execution, He put His own Son on the Cross for you. It is the only way you could be saved.

There is no dodge just your blindness and wickedness getting in the way of listening to God's people and hearing things you don't want to hear, and your master and father Satan being proved wrong.

The Lord God is waiting until the fulness of time. He wanted the Earth subdued and the things He invested in it, made use of. During that time He has used this world to bring into being a people for Himself and fashion them. When that process is complete He will do as you say, and all sinners will burn alive, and this Earth and Heavens will be destroyed.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:48pm
He wanted the Earth subdued and the things He invested in it, made use of. During that time He has used this world to bring into being a people for Himself and fashion them. When that process is complete He will do as you say, and all sinners will burn alive, and this Earth and Heavens will be destroyed.

So you're waiting for the repture? Waiting for all of the trees to get cut down and for all of our natural resources to be depleted? Is that why all of us treehugging conservationists are sinners? Because we're slowing down the process?
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:57pm
The rupture? :)

I've always kind of thought that about people who are awaiting the rapture too Mermaid. They don't give a tinker's damn about this planet they're living on, because they figure they're going to get pulled up into the sky sometime soon. Why should they have to conserve and care for their god's creations?

And they call us ignorant sinners...
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:02pm
Yah, yah. I am rushing between the computer and the television (I'm living a life of decadence today...Justin and the US vs Italy).

I thought of rupture as I was mistyping rapture.
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Posted by Comrade Otto Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:10pm
Boy, I can't wait for the rapture myself. Get rid of all these goddam republicans, and the rest of us might be able to sort things out.
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:43pm
Comrade, it'll be our damn luck that their god won't take them because of all the lying and sinning they've done, and will toss them back (sort of like that Python episode on flying). Then we'll be stuck with 'em!
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Posted by Rick :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:50pm
Mermaid sometimes your posts just drip with irony.
Judge not lest ye be judged.

Are you nuts

I think we've pretty much figured out that you are
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:55pm
Rick...all I've got to say is that this guy makes me appreciate you.
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:16pm
Quite honestly, I've never appreciated Rick so much before! :) At least he doesn't keep calling us Satanists.

You and Abby need to leave me your cell numbers, so when we get to hell, we can hook up and party. I hear there are some pretty great clubs on the shores of the lake of fire. I'll introduce you to all of my friends - we'll have a great time!

Have a blessed weekend everyone. :)
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:49pm
You and Abby need to leave me your cell numbers, so when we get to hell, we can hook up and party. I hear there are some pretty great clubs on the shores of the lake of fire. I'll introduce you to all of my friends - we'll have a great time!

My friends will be there too. It is going to be one hell of a party. Hell. Get it?

Abby...come visit us more often! There aren't many women who hang here on a regular basis. Red, Amy and I would love the company.
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:59pm
I most definitely second what Mermaid has to say Abby!

Dittos to any other women who are lurking out there but aren't posting. Feminist or not, Christian or not, we love to have our sisters join in the commentary.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:57pm
I'd like to get back to this "God hates Feminists" thing too.

What, Justin, do you think God has against Feminism?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:03pm
Everything which is contrary to God's ordinance is sin. You will know what God's order is on this and it is sin. I am not going to bother to engage in sewage sorting with you. If you approve of it in your unsaved state it is contrary to God and you will love it. But God hates it.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:09pm
Feminism is the core belief that women are of equal value and importance as men.

God hates that idea?

I'm...

flabberghasted.

Truly.

And *I'm* hateful for believing in equality?

Wow.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:13pm
And *I'm* hateful for believing in equality?

Abby..it's because you disagree with Minister Pompous.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:17pm
Abby,

The Lord God made women from and FOR men. He does not see them as separate entities, equal or otherwise. You don't know very much I see.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:20pm
The Lord God made women from and FOR men. He does not see them as separate entities, equal or otherwise. You don't know very much I see.

Duh, Abby! Maybe you need to spend the summer in vacation bible camp or something. C'mon! Get with the program.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:23pm
Again, I have to wonder why you bother. If women are just appendages for men, why bother to preach to her that feminism is wrong? She's going to hell anyway. You can't save her even if you wanted to, you said it yourself that it's all up to God.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:26pm
She's going to hell anyway.

*Tsk* Poor Abby.

But that's where the party is gonna be!
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:31pm
"*Tsk* Poor Abby.

But that's where the party is gonna be!"

:-)

I've been told, by Born Again Christians many times before that I'm going to Hell.

*shrug*

And just as I wouldn't want to be a part of a country club that rejects people because of who or what they are, so are my feelings about Heaven and Hell.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:25pm
Justin,

"You don't know very much I see."

Didn't anyone ever teach you how to respectfully and kindly disagree????


I believe women and men are of equal inherent value.
I believe blacks and whites are of equal inherent value.
I believe left handed and right handed people are of equal inherent value.
I believe tall and short people are of equal inherent value.
I believe gay and straight people are of equal inherent value. Etc.

If that makes me dumb I pray to never get smart.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:28pm
Abby,

And what did Jesus do? He was very straight with everyone. Is it strange that His servants and like Him?

Your position is against God and all He has said in the past. You are therefore setting yourself above God and making yourself His judge. You are not in submission to Him, but His enemy, and His hatred abides upon you.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:32pm
Justin,

I had thought that maybe civil discourse was possible with you.

I can see it is not.

You are full of hate and contempt.

No wonder you see God the same way.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:36pm
That pretty much everything in a nutshell.
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Posted by ZSGhost :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:10pm
Well, I can't doubt his courage.

Has anyone here ever gone to a site on the other side of the spectrum and commenting? I mean, Justin is wrong, but he's also overmatched. Anyone want to try going on a conservative equivalent of ABAHC and see what happens?
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:51pm
I've done it a couple of times. Once they figure out that you're not one of them, they shout you down. And I don't mean argue with you or try to engage you, they just shout and bully and demean you until you leave. Justin may be overmatched, but I don't think you can argue that anybody is shouting him down or bullying him, and I certainly don't want him to go away. I value his contribution and I'm glad to see some genuine arguing going on around here. It's been a bit dull lately, really.
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Posted by Comrade Mister Ham and Eggs Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:16pm
That's about the sickest piece of sexist rubbish I have ever seen. If that's the way your god operates, pal, than I'd just as soon have no truck with him. I'll take my chances with the fires of hell.
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Posted by redraven in need of breakfast :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:19pm
Comrade, please see my note to Mermaid and Abby. :) It would be great to see you too!
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:09pm
Word Up, Homeslice. I'm bringing marshmallows and hotdogs.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:20pm
He is not just my God Yam, He made and owns you. You breathe His air and you eat His food. You owe Him your life and when He is pleased to do so He will end your life. You are totally in His grip, in the overall sense, though you serve Satan.

There are no fires as such in Hell. Hell is just a remand prison with lots of people in it that you know who are waiting for Judgement Day before Christ in flame (the wrath of God), torment, anguish, and tears. Their grief amoplified by the certain knowledge that lots of people they know are carrying on the way they did.

Post Judgement Day you will, unless you repent, find yourself in the lake of fire. That is where you will receive eternal destruction, ongoing, and where there are no chances of anything.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:26pm
There are no fires as such in Hell.
Bummer Comrade...no S'mores.
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Posted by Comrade Otto Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:59pm
He is not just my God Yam, He made and owns you. You breathe His air and you eat His food. You owe Him your life and when He is pleased to do so He will end your life. You are totally in His grip, in the overall sense, though you serve Satan.
Well, that's a bit inaccuate. I don't serve anyone for starters, well, maybe my cats. If there were such a being as Satan, I'd likely tell him to bugger off.

And yes, Justin: he is just your god. I'm personally not in the market for one, and wouldn't even consider yours. I already have WMD Bush and his minions to deal with, and that's enough(incidentally, he claims Jesus/God speaks to him, you two got the same long-distance company? When you speak to god is it a standard trunk call or what?).

I don't spend much time worrying about gods as such. I live in this world right now, and have all I can do to worry about not harming the beings in it, and sharing whatever I can with same so we can all have a decent way to go. Now if that's the work of Satan, and will land me in eternal damnation, so be it.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:06pm
Beautifully put, Comrade. I'll join you in that eternal damnation.
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:27pm
Right there with y'all...
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Posted by Rick :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:44pm
redraven, I couldn't help but notice this:
I'm also curious how, if your god created you and the world and all things in it, anything you do could be against his/her/its nature.
God created this world and all things in it, He did not however place limitations on the creations ability to choose it's own path. Once that choice to reject the things of God is made then the choice is complete and not only will a person reject the things of God in this life but that person rejects the afterlife with God to come. Basically he gives a person what they want, a life without God.

You accuse God of being against his own creation but when the creation goes against what God has instructed us to do what else is He to do? Have you allowed your children to do whatever they want for their entire lives with no boundaries or consequences? I highly doubt it because it sounds like you have a couple of really great kids and that probably didn't just happen to come about but is a reflection of the parenting that they were under. Same thing here, God is leading us on to be something better than what we started as. I once heard it said that God loves us as we are but He also loves us enough not to leave us as we are.

It's not a God who hates His own children, it's a God that allows you to walk down the path you choose. If you choose rejection of the things of God, you choose that in it's entirety. As for your comment of
following a religion that promotes contempt of others
please help me with this one as I do not understand what you are pointing to in the Bible. I believe you have misplaced frustration with the actions of many self professing christians and what the Bible actually says.
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:09pm
Rick, have you read the rest of this thread? I wasn't thinking about people who truly try to live as Christians, in a loving, caring manner. I was just summarizing what people like Phelps and our newest poster, Justin, seem to be saying. Justin's version of God doesn't seem to jive very well with what I've heard you and other Christians say. I was merely reflecting back.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:42pm
That's what I understood you to be saying, Red.

Rick, we're giving you props, man!
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Posted by martin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 07:45am
As an outsider, I am guessing I'm going to be similarly ignored or dismissed. By "outsider" I mean that I have contracted neither type one nor type two Christianity, and have thus far avoided the nominal type three Xianity.
I can see no one here knows anything of the things of God.

Being merely human I cannot hope to comprehend the motivations or desires of any already named Higher Beings. As a mere human I doubt I could know for sure that I was even witnessing a thing of God, were I to encounter one. I certainly couldn't fathom His will. That's the trouble with saying God does this or God does that (or, for example, God hates this group or that group): we can't know that He does.

We can guess, if we take for granted that everything that God has in mind is in the Bible. Of course, the Bible is a book... written by mere humans...

A few years ago, friend of mine (or one of my professors at the time) mentioned a conversation he'd had with a Minister about the nature of sin and its consequence. Apparently the Minister had put it roughly this way: of course there's a Hell, but you'd be a fool to think that there are any people in it. For some reason this thread made me think of that.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 10:40am
Martin,

I only ignore silly jibes and the sort of Satanic reasoning that has very many less wise Christians going round and round hoping to get the wicked to accept that they are putrid and depraved from their own mouths. It does not happen, so I don't bother.

Sorry, but you are taking the position that because you do not know God He does not exist. But those of us who do know Him and serve Him speak from that place. You must not put your ideas and perspective on Christians.
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Posted by Griff :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:59pm
You have no proof that there is a god. I don't think you even realize how insufferably smug you sound, Justin.

I seem to remember that Jesus said to keep your religion to yourself.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:02pm
Jesus did not say any such thing, Griff. Your memory is playing tricks on you, and your master is hoping that by attacking the truth of God and attempting to ruin the messenger that God will be rendered non-existant thereby. But you will have your proof. Just wait.....that is all you have to do. You can only avoid God in this brief life.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:08pm
your master is hoping that by attacking the truth of God and attempting to ruin the messenger that God will be rendered non-existant thereby.

Griff, I'll give you a rough translation: You are a child of the DEVIL!
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:09pm
Mermaid,

Don't be silly, that is not funny. So are you, and the price of that is eternal fire. It is not a joke subject. Apologise to Griff, please.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:12pm
Dear Griff...I'm sorry that you're a child of the devil.

How's that?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:15pm
No, not good enough. It should be 'sorry that I accused you of being a child of the devil when I am one too and no better than you are. We are both separated from God by sin, hated of Him, and on the way to the burning, and that is not funny'.
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Posted by Dave :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:16pm
Jesus did not say any such thing
I think Griff is closer to the truth than you, Justin. The passage is Matthew 6:6 - But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Other passages you might want to review :
Dave 5:12 "Hang up and drive"
Linux 7:23 "Thou shalt not keep graven images upon your cell phone"
MarkieMark 3:14 "And the Lord said unto the disbelievers - I rule, beeyotch"

OK, maybe some of that is made up, but so is all scripture.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:20pm
Let that be a lesson to all not to meddle in the Scripture when you don't understand it, or know the Person it speaks of and who inspired it, which is where God's people start; with God.

Seeing as you are an arrogant and impudent Satanist and think you know better than God's servants, please compare that text you quote with the umpteen about evangelism and preaching the gospel to the wicked. This should give the Lord's people a derisory laugh.....
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:33pm
Just remember Dave, no matter what you might say in this debate, you are a child of satan (or was that a child of Stalin?) and you are not worrrrrrthy!

You are, however, welcome to join the rest of us at the lake after the rupture.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:20pm
Actually, as I recall, Jesus said just the opposite. The fact is that Christians are biblically mandated to convert or kill heathens, just as Muslims are.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:21pm
That is one of the most appalling blasphemous lies I have ever read, Ryland. Christians are specifically told NOT to do any such thing, for various reasons known to them. How on earth can post such lies?
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 09:38am
(If it isn't obvious, Justin is the British Christian Minister, the author of the e-mails. I told him that I posted our e-mail exchange and invited him to comment.)

Welcome, Justin, I'm glad you've joined in. I see you're making friends quickly. :) I hope you won't take any of the comments personally, we're a pretty Godless bunch around here for the most part and sometimes we can get a bit passionate, but we all mean well.
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Posted by Griff :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:57pm
It's responses like yours that make me really wish I could knock some sense into the heads of most fundamentalists. Unfortunately, the closed-loop logic system that fundamentalists function upon makes that effectively impossible.

It's scary to live in a world full of people who think that there's a god that speaks to them and hates 99% of the population.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:07am
He just wrote back:
Hello Ryland,

I can well imagine that you would want to avoid crank e-mails. I was not complaining that you did not have contact addresses on the 'God hates shrimp' site, I guessed you had done it deliberately for the reasons you gave, and very sensible too!

Things are as you say, you will find a lot of finger pointing amongst professing Christians. In pointing out the types I was merely relaying what the Scripture says. I was not making any doctrinal point about others, only pointing out that Mr Phelps is not with and is not in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Much of what he is doing is utterly contrary to the direct teaching of Christ.

The three types of Christian are these; type 1 Christians, and type 2's are both seen in Mt.7:13, 14. They are the narrow wayers, and the broad roaders. The type 3's, the nominal Christians who no more know Christ than you do, are seen mentioned in various other places as 'false brethren' etc.

You repeat the standard wrong interpretation of Jn.3:16. Read Jn.3:14 -16 and you will see that a comparison is being made between Moses putting the brazen serpent on the pole, and God sending His Son to go on the Cross. 'Love' here is in the aorist tense, and it means a 'one off complete action'. It emphatically does not refer to sentimental ongoing love for anyone. You will see that Scripture plainly states that God hates sinnners, ALL sinners. Ps.5:5 and 7:11.

I was not suggesting you were acting immaturely, just that you come over as being young. I am a bit older than you, at 51, so you can take some comfort that you are yet young in my eyes. :)

Being a Christian is nothing to do with what you know or believe in the first place. It is not a theological/philosophical position that is book learned, or derived by learning/debate. Homosexuality is just one of the outworkings of sin in mankind, as is lying, stealing, etc. It is just proof that the person is a sinner, and that they are still children of Satan. When they are born again they are changed from sinner to child of God and do not sin any more. Liars no more lie, sodomites do not lust after men, murderers do not murder etc.. God's children do not sin against God. That is what salvation is; salvation from that which separates man from God, sin, and being brought TO God.

Your understanding is devoid of any knowledge of new birth, but only of what we call 'churchianity'. I would not expect you to understand, as an outsider, but to attempt to then teach the things of God from such a standpoint is as foolish as my trying to teach quantum mechanics when my mathematical ability is only basic. (And let me assure you that it is! :) )

There is no debate. For the type 1 Christians, who know God, and hear God speak to them, what Scripture says is plainly true. Only those who do not know Him debate Scripture. And, yes, like all real Christians I have heard Jesus speak to me, directly. He said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." It is fundamentally impossible to follow someone with whom you have no contact. So those who do not hear God speak to them cannot be Christians as they are not in contact with the person they are attempting to be a disciple of. Christians will not debate with you, and the Lord God has never told them to do so. He told them to go and 'preach', or 'state' the gospel, and those whom He has given to hear will hear.

You will do well to leave debate alone, and particularly debating/denying the things of God. You are, like all unsaved people, in serious trouble with God and there is no point adding to that, and provoking Him. No matter what you and I think God will have His way, and you will see Him with your own eyes, everyone does. He outranks us, who are made by Him, as the sun outranks a speck of household dust. Our lives are in His hands and there is nothing you can do to overcome His will. You will die one day, as all do, and there is nothing you can do to retain your life.

You will do well to leave the things of God alone. Better to die an honest sinner than a religious hypocrite, or a person who thought themselves to be able to overturn the truth of God by mere 'debate'. Christians begin with God, and not the Bible. Until you find God like we have you do not stand a chance of understanding the Scripture anyway.

I hope you will reconsider. In spending time attacking Mr Phelps you are making hideous errors in Scriptural exposition, and you are attacking a man who will be lost with all unsaved people, unless he repents. What on earth is the point? It is not doing you any good.

Yours, [name withheld].
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:38am
And, yes, like all real Christians I have heard Jesus speak to me, directly. He said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."
What if he spoke to me and I didn't know it because I don't speak Armenian?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:44am
Mermaid,

If you are ever to be saved He has to speak to you. That is how He works. He will speak to you in your own language, if He chooses.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:46am
Are you really a minister or are you just trying to get attention?

Isn't being prideful and pompous a sin against god?

Why won't you answer the question, Mr. Pompous minister?
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:52am
That's sound theological doctrine, as I understand it - Jesus said, "None shall come to the Father except through me." So I take that to mean that it doesn't matter how much bible reading you do, if you don't accept Him into your heart it won't matter. However, and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting, what you seem to be saying is that once you do accept Him and are born again, you are incapable of sin. I think this is clearly not the case, unless people like Jimmy Swaggart are just lying when they say they're born again.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:59am
Ryland,

Very true. Well done. No amount of Bible reading/theology application to religion ABOUT Him will make one iota of difference to your standing before Him.

You cannot accept Jesus 'into your heart' unless He engineer your repentance in the first place. As clearly testified to here by God's enemies, they are against Him and determined to get some black on Him and accuse Him of all sorts of wickedness, when it is actually them who is to blame.

If the Lord God bring you to Christ, the only way you will ever come, the unsaved person is too wicked to come otherwise, and you are born again, sure you can sin. The issue is that sin does not rule you any more, and you are no longer a child of the devil. If you sin, you have to repent. If you don't God will chastise you until you do, or you begin the long slide back to the road to the lake of firs that you were on before you were saved. Freedom from sin is what Christ gave His life FOR.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:02pm
you are no longer a child of the devil

I feel a bit ripped off. Why don't I have a tail and cool little horns? Why can't I carry a pitchfork everywhere I go?
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:12pm
You cannot accept Jesus 'into your heart' unless He engineer your repentance in the first place.
Then what happened to free will? I thought the whole point was that you had a choice. You seem to be saying that nobody can be saved unless God allows them to. Are you sure you're a minister? You're either a really bad one, or you're using some kind of reverse psychology to trick people into being interested. Nothing makes people want to join a club more than being told they can't join.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:16pm
Ryland,

It is not done away with, but you will never understand those things until you are saved from sin and death unto God like His people are.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:19pm
...which I can't be, unless God says I can, according to you. So I guess I'll just relax and wait until God calls on me.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:24pm
Very good, Ryland. Of all those who are posting here you are listening and understanding some truth.

Unless the Lord God move in your heart and life you cannot and will not repent of sin, everything in you loves it.

You can seek the Lord, while He may be found, but you won't do that until you understand how putrid and depraved you are. You will not see that until He 'switches the lights on' and it is not a pretty sight.

There is nothing you can do. Your life is in His hands, and when He says it is over you die. Unless He choose and move on you, bringing you to repentance and new life, you will never be saved from sin, that separates you from God, and you will face eternal destruction
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:26pm
sigh...

Poor Ryland. Putrid and depraved. You're not one of the chosen.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:31pm
How do you know that? Ryland may be saved at some time in the future, I don't know, and neither do you.
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Posted by ZSGhost :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:15pm
Does he?
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Posted by Griff :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:00pm
You sure act like you do.

You're a Calvinist, aren't you?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:04pm
No, I am a Christian. John Calvin was a thoroughly nasty piece of work and a modified Catholic. I have read what he wrote, and what he did, too.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 09:14am
Wow.

I have never seen anyone defend Phelps before. Of course I've seen the "he's on the right track but he takes things a bit too far" argument...

*sigh*


I just cannot understand the adoration some people can have for a God they believe is so vengeful and full of hate.

I really don't get it.
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Posted by Crockodile :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 09:34am
I also cant imagine people worshipping such an evil "god". Buddhism looks SO much better to the thinking person. Ryland, when I grow up, can I be you? :)
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 09:44am
Ha! You're welcome to be me, I'm certainly not doing a very good job of it. Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I've got a few tens of thousands of lifetimes on the wheel myself before I grow up.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 10:05am
Growing up is over-rated.

(or so I imagine)

:-)
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:51pm
When I grow up, I'll be dead.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 10:45am
Abby,

I am not sure who you mean, but what Phelps is doing is very, very, wrong, and hence he cannot be a disciple of Christ. He is not with or obeying the Lord Jesus. He is not a Christ-ian. If you not in obedience to Him you cannot walk with Him. "Can two walk together except they be agreed."

However, some of what Phelps says is correct. But as I have pointed out it is a tiny scrap in a heap of error. God hates all sinners, including everyone here. But He may save to odd one here in the future, and you will be as amazed as the Christians when you cannot understand how you did not see it before.

The Lord God is not vengeful, etc. He hates sin. Repent or burn. He gave His Son's life so you may be free from sin (indpendance from God, and being your own god), and if you don't get rid of that nature by being born again He has to burn you. NO sin of any description is going into the new Earth; the new Creation.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:11am
"God hates all sinners"

With respect, I just cannot believe that God hates anyone or anything.

I don't believe God is capable of hate.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:33am
Abby,

Sorry, but you have to throw out the Bible, and the testimony of those who know and love Him, to believe that. You cannot and will not correctly beleive until you know Him. As someone who is not one of His people you are not in a postion to say anything about it. God hates all sinners. Everyone who is not born again a child of God is still a child of Satan and His enemy. He hates His enemies and burns them.
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Posted by Revolution :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:50am
Does Jesus, also, hate all sinners?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:52am
Revolution,

Yes indeed. He referred to the unsaved variously as 'pigs', 'dogs' 'wolves' 'whited seplchres' ' hypocrites' and 'children of the devil'. Only those chosen of the Father and brought to Him to be made a recipient of what He achieved on the Cross are His brethren, and those He loves.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:55am
He referred to the unsaved variously as 'pigs', 'dogs' 'wolves' 'whited seplchres' ' hypocrites' and 'children of the devil'.

Would you please give us chapter and verse? Thanks!
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:01pm
No, the Scripture is not for your ears. But lying is sin and I would not dare do so. I get punished if I do.
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Posted by Revolution :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:02pm
Every time I lie, God takes away my Playstation and cellphone for a week. Sorry. I had to say it.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:04pm
But lying is sin and I would not dare do so. I get punished if I do.

Have you never had to answer the question, "Honey, does this dress make me look fat?"
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:05pm
I tell the truth, even if it hurts. But I do it gently as God says.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:06pm
"Whited sepulchres" is from Matthew 23:27: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." Sorry to disappoint you, Justin, but scripture is for anybody with a browser.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:30pm
"Sorry to disappoint you, Justin, but scripture is for anybody with a browser."

*smile*
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Posted by Revolution :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:59am
Dang. Here I thought I had an understanding of Christ's love for everybody. It's a shame that he died for all of those people and only less than 1% of them were insiders. Seems kind of a waste to me. It's like having 20 children (all yours) and executing all but one of them because you didn't like the way that they were raised. Come to think of it, I kind of dig being an outsider if yours is that kind of God. No offense, I really mean that.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:04pm
Revolution,

Sure, all sinners love sin; independance from God, it is their nature to be like that. You would not like Heaven, or the new Earth that will come about post Judgement Day if you got there.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:05pm
Justin...you want to party with all of us in hell anyway. It's where the cool kids hang out.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:10pm
Mermaid,

Not one of the billions of souls in Hell would find what you just said funny. In all their anguish, flame, and tears there is not one of them would not like to get back here and knock some sense into you.

Have some respect for the dead, please. Do you really think making jokes about that place and those in it is in good taste? If God does not extend grace to you, engineer your repentance, and bring you to Christ, you have no chance of avoiding Hell, Judgement Day, and a lake of fire forever
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:12pm
Dear Justin...
I have news for you. There is no hell.
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Posted by Griff :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:02pm
Nor is there a god. But Justin's free to believe in his fantasies. I just wish that him and others like him would stop hassling the rational.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:06pm
In case you have not noticed, this is a religion blog. I am not hassling anyone, just reminding them that they are on the way to Hell, and that they cannot escape death and try and dispose of God by engaging in denial forever. If you don't want to hear the Truth of God then you had better go to a board discussing cars, or food, or something, surely?
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:11pm
In case you have not noticed, this is a religion blog.
Ouch! I just hit my head on the edge of my desk as I fell out of my chair laughing my butt off. This is a religion blog? What is it that we worship?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:13pm
There are only two gods; the Lord God of Israel, who made, owns, and sustains everything, and in whose hand is your life, and Satan, by whatever other name people call him.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:19pm
Justin...there is no Satan, Devil, Beelzebub, Evil One, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, adversary, archfiend, beast, brute, common enemy, dastard, diablo, dybbuk, enfant terrible, fiend, hellion, imp, knave, monster, ogre, rogue, scamp, scoundrel, sin, the Dickens, villain or whatever else you want to call it.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:32pm
So, how do folks think that they are going to escape death and facing Christ in the few short years they have left. Everyone knows there is a God and that Judgement follows death, which is why they fight not to acknowledge God and to blacked God's name making Him a worse sinner than they are, thus doubling their condemnation before Him.

But all die. Even the most keen disciple of Satan in sin and wickedness cannot be so stupid as to think that they will not die.

So, as Almighty God has spoken on this saying, "It is appointed unto men once to die and then the Judgement" how do the wicked think they will escape meeting Him? More denial?

I don't doubt that amongst the BILLIONS of people in Hell now many are screaming 'didn't I always say that this place did not exist?!!!! Didn't I always say that it is all myth?!!!! So why is this happening to me?!!!' Most people are utterly stupid and whilst knowing that God exists they would rather fight Him than come to Him repentantly. Why do the wicked here think they can destroy God by denial etc.?
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Posted by Comrade Otto Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:17pm
In case you have not noticed, this is a religion blog. I am not hassling anyone, just reminding them that they are on the way to Hell, and that they cannot escape death and try and dispose of God by engaging in denial forever. If you don't want to hear the Truth of God then you had better go to a board discussing cars, or food, or something, surely?

Well Neener Neener Neener! I was here FIRST! Incidentally. I didn't know god was disposable. He should be recyclable. Maybe I can get a shiny dime if I find enough Plastic Jesuses(Jesus i? hmmmm).
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:21pm
Plastic Jesuses(Jesus i?

I think it's Jesi. Octopus/Octopi Hippopotamus/Hippopotami
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:20pm
In case you have not noticed, this is a religion blog.
Perhaps you need to do a bit of research my dear. This is a blog that discusses religion, along with every other topic we can think of.

Telling people that they are satanists and they're going to burn in hell could be considered "hassling" them [although, I could be considered a Santanaista, because I do truly love Carlos]. Maybe if you got out of your ivory tower once in awhile and took a look around the real world, you'd understand that. And please don't speak to me about your age and knowledge - we've lived on this earth the same amount of time, you and I, so no need to let me know how much more experienced you are.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:22pm
Red...you're the wise one of the two.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:24pm
The Satanist endorse you Red, whereas they persecuted and eventually cried for the blood of, Jesus. All God's people are persecuted but you are not.....
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Posted by Revolution :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:07pm
I guess I wouldn't if only narrow-minded, arrogant, haters were there. I'll pass even if I'm invited. Thanks
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:13pm
That is pretty much, in other words, what they said to Jesus before He gave Himself up to be executed in your place.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:16pm
That is pretty much, in other words, what they said to Jesus before He gave Himself up to be executed in your place.

Please give us the "other words." I would appreciate chapter and verse.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:17pm
Declined.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:18pm
Would that be because you made it up?
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:20pm
I'm a "many paths" person. Obviously you are not.

That's ok. (with me)

It seems your version of what God is, is very different than mine.

So be it.

:-)
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:26pm
Abby,

I have come across that before, of course. Just wait, you will see if the Lord God of Israel who sent His Son to stand proxy execution for you is a liar or not. If He is a wicked and evil liar then you will be fine. But if He is holy, righteous, and the only true God who made the Heavens and the Earth you will burn alive forever.

All you have to do is wait for your incontrovertable proof......
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:32pm
"Just wait, you will see..."

Ok, Justin. I will wait and see. :-)

In the meantime I will continue to believe that God is Love.

*shrug*
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:38pm
Abby,

God is love, but that does not mean He loves sin and sinners. He has already said He hates both. He has already said He is going to burn most people. He is love, but you are ignoring all the other things God is; holy, righteous, etc.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:40pm
He has already said He hates both. He has already said He is going to burn most people.

Would you please give my chapter and verse? Pretty please with sugar on top?

Or did you make that up too?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:43pm
You have already said that you don't believe the Scripture anyway, and you don't believe a servant of God either, so there would be no point.

You just wait for your proof. You cannot avoid death. It is only a question of when......
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:44pm
You have already said that you don't believe the Scripture anyway, and you don't believe a servant of God either, so there would be no point.

But if I want to be saved, how will I know what is right or wrong? How am I supposed to learn?
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:47pm
Doesn't matter what you want, sinner. If God wants you, He'll let you know.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:50pm
Very true. If the Lord God is going to save you He will draw you to Christ. Everyone is born fit for burning, and He is choosing out a few for Himself, and fashioning a people for Himself. You cannot add your name to the Book of Life, but you can sure get it blotted out.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:48pm
Mermaid,

Salvation is nothing to do with doctrine or understanding. Christians do not have a mentally assembled belief system (and I am not speaking about the nominals who do here), and so understanding is of no use to you. You are congenitally unable to understand the things of God unless He gives you 'eyes to see, and ears to hear'.

Salvation is not about philosophy or theology. Someone can be saved and not begin to know any theology or Scripture at all. God is not about changing your thinking but changing what you ARE. You were born a child of the devil and you must be born AGAIN a child of God, just as Jesus said.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:54pm
You were born a child of the devil

Then where's my goddam tail and horns?!
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:57pm
Why would you want them? The devil does not have them. That sort of idea comes from pagan religion.

You take after your master and father Satan. You love independance from God, and you hate Him. You love sin and hate righteousness, and will fight God's people, because you cannot get at God Himself, in order to get your master's wickedness accepted against God's way. You are a Satanist BY NATURE, all unsaved people are, and so was I once.

You must be born again.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:00pm
Great...you just made me snort milk out of my nose. I can't believe that I'm choosing to make fun of you rather than watch the Czech Republic vs Ghana.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:02pm
Justin you're being pretty mean to Mermaid. She seems to be taking it well, but from here, I find your comments hurtful.

"You must be born again."

Well, reincarnation in one way or another does seem likely to me, so I suppose someday we all shall be.

But that's not, I assume, what you meant.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:05pm
Abby...thanks for having my back. I am baiting the hell out of him because he's like a little toy. I am sitting back laughing my ass off at him and he doesn't even realize how funny he is.

Hell is a fictional place. Justin lives in a fictional world.

And you rock, Abby.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:13pm
"thanks for having my back."

You're welcome. :-)

"I am sitting back laughing my ass off"

I'm glad you're not taking it personally! :-)

"Hell is a fictional place."

I think so too. Well, actually I think Heaven and Hell are right here on earth. We make this place wonderful and terrible all the time.

"And you rock, Abby."

*blush*
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:16pm
I'm glad you're not taking it personally! :-)

I made the choice to not fight hatred with hatred. I'd rather just make fun of him.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:21pm
"I made the choice to not fight hatred with hatred."

:-) That's a good decision.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:07pm
Why would you want them?

I dunno. I think it'd be kinda cool to walk around with a tail whipping around. You know, like a cat. People would know if I were pissed off by the way my tail was thrashing about.

People would know I was happy to see them because I could wag my tail.
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Posted by Comrade Mister Ham and Eggs Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:23pm
If I had a tail, I'd hope it were prehensile, so I could hang from trees. That would be cool and funny. I could also carry a couple of extra oxygen tanx with it, and that could be mighty handy at work. Plus I'd like, randomly whack ppl w/it and lie and say it was a spasm.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:38pm
That would be so cool.

But he only named me a child of Satan, didn't he?
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:40pm
Maybe you're an imp...they have tails, don't they?
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:45pm
Heck no. He proclaimed me a child of satan.

I've never been called that before. I never realized that I was that evil.
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:58pm
Now wait one doggone minute here, I'm the evillest person anywhere. I'm a commie as well as a god denying swine. I even took up a seminar for future middle managers in Hell(somebody has to administer the torments of the damned, now don't they?). So NERR.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:06pm
The Lord Jesus called all sinners 'children of the devil' and 'pigs' 'dogs' 'wolves' 'the wicked' 'hypocrites' and 'whited sepulchres'. You are in the vast majority. God's people always have been very few.
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:20pm
"Dogs" and "wolves" eh? Jesus must be a cat fancier. I may be in the vast majority, but I have the proper connexions. When popes were knockin off every week in the late 70's, I was a member of the Pope of the Month club. I have a special ID card(with picture, of course), designating my level of evil. I'm a registerd Linux user. I think Fox News is the mainstream media. I've seen nekkid ppl. Yep. I'm eviller and ruder than anyone, even yr dad.
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 03:33pm
I think you're a liar. You won't give us any chapters or verses.

And quit with the "holier than thou so you don't get to know" stuff. Our Rick is a way better christian than you and he will even provide us with bible citations when he thinks we're wrong.
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Posted by Comrade Otto Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:07pm
I like and have come to respect Rick. He runs the gauntlet, and still comes back. He can at least acknowledge that there are other beliefs besides his, and if he doesn't agree with them, he's at least able to coexsist with them.

More importantly, I consider Rick a part of this community(I don't think I'm alone in that), and Rick can deal with that concept. He doesn't have any pretensions to exclusivity based on his beliefs. Because of that, I'm willing to give him a listen, and am glad that he's here.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:42pm
"He is going to burn most people. He is love,"

It's interesting to me that you hold these two beliefs simultaneously.

"but you are ignoring all the other things God is;"

I'm not ignoring it. I just speculate differently.

I would never presume to *know* what God is. I just believe differently than you do. That's all.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:50pm
It's interesting to me that you hold these two beliefs simultaneously.
It's called doublethink. Christians are really good at it.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:55pm
There is no contradiction, Ryland, only that, as an enemy of God who is blind to God's things and a slave to Satan you are congenitally incapable of understanding God's things. I was there once too, so I am not finger pointing. If He had not extended grace to me I would still be where you are.
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Posted by Abby :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:55pm
"It's called doublethink."

Yes, I'm familiar with the concept. :-)

and :-(
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:42am
God hates all sinners, including everyone here

I wish Rick were here. I think he's have something to say about that.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:58am
I am not sure who you mean, but what Phelps is doing is very, very, wrong, and hence he cannot be a disciple of Christ.
I don't doubt your sincerity, Justin, but I can't help but reiterate that Fred Phelps is probably just as sincere as you are, and he would no doubt claim that he's right and you aren't a disciple of Christ. How are we outsiders to know which one of you is right? (For what it's worth, I find you much more palatable than Fred Phelps, but that may only be an aesthetic issue, not a moral or ethical one.)
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Posted by Dave Lartigue :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 10:40am
Justin doesn't reply to the obvious issue here:

Why is homosexuality a sin and not eating shrimp?

They are condemned in the same book, using the same language. Why is there no anti-shrimp legislation in our governments? Why is no one picketing seafood restaurants? Why, in other words, is God's condemnation of what you like not important, but His condemnation of what you don't must be upheld?

Let me guess. It's a Saved thing; I wouldn't understand.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 10:48am
Hello Dave,

Those things are not for outsider's ears. As and enemy of God, whom you hate and despise, and will not have rule over you, you are not to be privvy to the truth.

However, the problem you have lies in the fact that you do not understand what the Scripture says. You do not know the difference between Covenant Law and moral Law, and neither do you know the difference between the Old Covenant and the New (extant) one.

The only people who will be influenced by your argument are those who are also blind outsiders. God's people, bar the very new ones, know these things.
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Posted by Outsiderrr :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:13am
As and enemy of God, whom you hate and despise
I must have missed the hate in Dave's post. But in yours, Justin, it comes through loud and clear.

So God creates imperfct beings then hates them for their imperfection, and will burn them all (but 144,000) for their flaws. Makes sense to me.

You claim some special 'insider' understanding of this absurdity, but I've been on the inside, and the most vehement bible thumping hate mongers are the ones with no special knowlege at all. Most of the ones I've interacted with can barely comprehend their phone bill, much less the word of God.

Then again your post could well have been making fun of fundies, but there are so many who feel that way, it's hard to see the humor.
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Posted by Vicki :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:24am
If "these things are not for outsiders' ears," why are you taking the time to speak to us? For that matter, if only those to whom Jesus speaks directly can be Christians, why bother with the Bible, or any other book, at all?
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 11:36am
Vicki,

Sorry, you missed something, or I did not make it clear. The Lord God does not teach His enemies. The only thing that God tells the wicked is the gospel, and the things that surround it. The gospel to the world, the things of God to God's people.
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Posted by Comrade Otto Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:03pm
Well if all this is so, what's the point of it all then? All this hugger-mugger of life and all that seems a tremendous waste of time and energy on god's part. Why not just cut to the chase and whip up a bunch of supplicant entities, and then sit down and crack a Coors 16 Oz'er while being worshipped all day. Unless God is bored. Or cruel. or any of the above.
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Posted by Vicki :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:26pm
If you agree that God gave the gospel to everyone, even the wicked, you should be willing to give citations when people ask where something appears in the gospel.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:30pm
The Lord God has not given the gospel to anyone. I am not sure I understand you. He sends out preachers to preach the gospel to the wicked. Amongst the wicked are a few who will hear and come to Christ, by the sovereign grace of God.

Scripture is not written to the wicked, but to and for, and largely about, the Lord's people.
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:06pm
Well I hate to tell you this, but I have quite a few versions of scripture at hand on my Windows CE mobile/PDA, courtesy of Rick Myers. Mr Myers follows what god tells him too, and gives this handy resource out for free: "Freely you received, freely give." (Matthew 10.8). Now if you're going to quantify who is doing a more effective job of the lord's work(in the Christian context), I'd have to give the nod to Mr. Myers.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:08pm
Nothing to do with me what you do and have. I don't know a Rick Myers either.
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Posted by Comrade Ottorino Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:21pm
Which is why I provided the link. You might have a look at it. People who put tangible effort towards something they believe in, without expecting anything in return tend to gain my respect.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:25pm
Nothing to do with me what you or they do. I am not their judge or anyone elses. Before Jesus Christ everyone, including the vast majority of the condemned, stand.
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Posted by ZSGhost :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:18pm
I am not their judge or anyone elses.
And yet you judge them. And soon, me, for I have commented around this blog as well.
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Posted by Comrade Mister Ham and Eggs Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:41pm
When, exactly, did you close your mind to everything outside your narrow litte predefined sphere? Yr god's own "bubble boy". If you are so strong and sincere in your belief, then you shouldn't have a problem looking outside it, or in this specific case, my example of what another person of faith has done because of his convictions. Have you stopped being a member of the human race? Doesn't Romans 3.23: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" apply to you? If not, than I'll be duly impressed. I still call FRAUD!
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Posted by Comrade Ottorinio Yamamoto :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 10:49am
You are, like all unsaved people, in serious trouble with God and there is no point adding to that, and provoking Him

Dammit, Ryland! Stop poking god w/a stick!
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Posted by Revolution :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:35pm
Hey guys, I'm leaving work now and won't be back on again until Monday. It's good timing, though, as I am tired of listening to this self-riteous loony's rantings. On my way out, I would like to wish all of the sinners a HAPPY FATHER'S DAY from your pal Revolution. See ya!
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 12:39pm
Peace out, Rev!
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Posted by L.S. :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:07pm
Thanks, Justin, for reinforcing my decision to convert to Judaism.
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Posted by Justin :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 01:13pm
LS,

Well if all you had was Christianity, and you missed the Lord Jesus Himself, then you might as well be in some religion like Judaism, there is no practical difference. Mere religion about a god that one does not know is all the same. But the Lord God's people know him.
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Posted by ZSGhost :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:17pm
Justin -

This is just idle cuiousity, but is God that big of a prick that he thinks that it's a sin if you don't call him "My lord"?
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Posted by Revolution :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:31pm
Hey Ryland, have you gizoogled your site, yet?

http://sites.gizoogle.com/showpage.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abahc.com%2Findex.php
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Posted by Mermaid :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:34pm
Hey! Did Justin leave without even saying goodbye?
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Posted by redraven :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:39pm
He probably went out to gather up some faggots and wood so he could burn us all at the stake. It's thinking like his that brought us the joys of the Inquisition and the Dark Ages.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 02:57pm
He's in England, it's nearly 8pm there. Maybe he's having supper.
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Posted by Griff :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:10pm
That's a shame. I thought that Britain imported all their crazy religionists over to our side of the pond a couple centuries back.
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Posted by E_B_A :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:42pm
Justin, if you're still here... for the sake of whatever, I would like to mention that a real Christian leads by example and preaches with his actions, more than his words. What example are you hoping to present here?
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 17, 2006 04:45pm
OK, this is becoming repetitive and personal, so I'm locking it down for now. I may open it back up later, but 200+ comments in one day is enough for now.
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Posted by Ryland :: :: :: Jun 18, 2006 10:30am
Update and more explanation about closing this thread:

I felt like we were all getting close to being way out of line, and I include myself. It was moving too fast - over 200 comments in one day, most of them in about 8 hours or so (which is unprecedented for ABAHC, needless to say). Everybody was starting to repeat themselves, so I called a halt to it before it could get ugly.

I apologize for not explaining this sooner. I hope you all weren't angry with me for chopping off the thread like that; I certainly had qualms about doing it. I can see that you guys might think it was a kind of censorship. Or maybe "censorship" wasn't the right word, but I thought maybe people would think it was being kind of high-handed. Sure, it's my site, but I think (or I hope, anyway) that I've encouraged people to expect that they can speak their mind without having to worry about getting shut out - not that they can voice any knotheaded opinion unchallenged, but without fear of getting banned arbitrarily or shouted down. That was why I hesitated before closing the thread, the concern that people would think I was trying to shut Justin up. Which I was, I guess, but not because I didn't want to hear him anymore, but rather because I didn't want it to turn into a flame war that could cause hurt feelings.

I've decided to leave it closed. I don't think there's anything much more to add to the discussion. If you feel different, you're welcome to e-mail me and we can talk about it.
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